This can happen anywhere...

[runpaulone]

Alright CCW people, my brother sent me this link this morning, and my first thought was, "this can happen anywhere." I'm not one to sit around coming up with hypothetical scenarios on when to use, but I'll tell you this, after watching this video, you'd better believe it's crossed my mind. I'm not sure if I should posted this in CCW section or Survival so I hope everyone on the board sees this. By the way, this comes after reading part of Massad Ayoob's book In The Gravest Extreme last night, so legitimate responses please. Here's mine:

Had I been CC working in the store, I'm not sure I would've gone crazy on these guys as soon as they walked in, but I suppose that would've been my only chance. Keep in mind I'm a new shooter, so my adrenaline may have completely altered any shots I could've pulled off. Question: In this situation, and this is a real threat, does a CCW like the .380cc with a finger safety limit your ability to fire quickly out of the holster? I know practice makes perfect, but a CCW like the Kel-Tec's (Bersa may have guns with no safety, but I haven't researched it) would allow the ability to fire and consider safeties second.

All thoughts are greatly appreciated. Feel free to comment on any of the following subjects, 1.)an ambush attack, 2.) CC at work, 3.) trigger safeties in a scenario where reaction needs to be fast, 4.) create your own.

(After watching this vid again, I realized this is in WI. According to handgunlaws.us WI is a "right denied" state. I live in Indiana so I haven't researched WI laws yet, but another factor in this situation is that CCW is not possible in WI. - correct me if I'm wrong.)

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/ ... djt?hpt=T2

[Lance39]

First, no one was in position to cut loose as soon as the guys stormed in.
Second, if allowed, CC at work is a good thing - especially in a workplace such as this.
Third, Forget that "finger safety" on your Bersa. Carry it with a round in chamber, hammer de-cocked and safety OFF. Because of the double-action pull needed for the first shot, it's as safe as a revolver.

[runpaulone]

First, no one was in position to cut loose as soon as the guys stormed in.

As far as I can tell any one of the employees were in a direct position of being shot and killed as soon as that shotgun came through the door, which seems to be reasonable ground to shoot. What's your reasoning for your statement?

Third, Forget that "finger safety" on your Bersa. Carry it with a round in chamber, hammer de-cocked and safety OFF. Because of the double-action pull needed for the first shot, it's as safe as a revolver.

Great point, one in which I completely disregarded. A strong enough pull is needed for the double-action, making this safe enough to carry w/ a round in the chamber and the safety off. Thanks.

[Lance39]

"As far as I can tell any one of the employees were in a direct position of being shot and killed as soon as that shotgun came through the door, which seems to be reasonable ground to shoot. What's your reasoning for your statement?"

No reasoning, just poor quality of video. Looked to me like the employees were at the far end of the store, but I'll accept your view.

[runpaulone]

There's alot to consider when drawing on someone, many external factors besides you and the perp. Primarily, state law would be a huge factor. In this case, WI. I'm speaking to IN laws and I think most states that allow CC in general. In this case, the employees seemed to be far enough away to run without danger of being shot, but notice that if it were a millisecond sooner the perp would've seen where these women ran. Also, these guys were most likely not out for a killing spree, but rather a "shut your mouth while I steal this money" situation, although I wouldn't bet my life on that assumption.

Some other factors I've figured in is the potential of the perp firing a spread of pellets from a shotgun which at what seems a be a decent range may or may not have hit all three employees, putting you, the CC carrier in a position to explain why you felt the need to start firing, potentially causing the perp to kill all three employees when he may not have. Again, I'm not sure I'd bet my life on this reason for hesitation. From what I've read of Ayoob's book already, the other guys, part of the ambush, are collateral damage. By being part of the ambush, armed or not are part of the threat.

There's also a factor of a wild round flying past the perps and into the street. There's honestly alot to consider, especially in a situation like this before flinging rounds at someone. Again, in the situation, my life would be depending on this.

I still hold my position, for now, that in this case and most, you'd better be lawyered-up and prepared to explain every minute action you made when you pulled your weapon.

[taz4509]

Those were some pretty thick coats.....I wonder just how effective a .380 round would have been at actually stopping them.

[runpaulone]

Those were some pretty thick coats.....I wonder just how effective a .380 round would have been at actually stopping them.

Good point. The more I think of it, it's time to get something bigger than my starter gun. Actually, that's something else to consider CC. Thanks.

[Michael T]

In this case, the employees seemed to be far enough away to run without danger of being shot, but notice that if it were a millisecond sooner the perp would've seen where these women ran. Also, these guys were most likely not out for a killing spree, but rather a "shut your mouth while I steal this money" situation, although I wouldn't bet my life on that assumption.

Where do you run in a store that you won't die. Can you out run lead. If they came in with guns I consider them dangerous and I am in fear of my life (a "shut your mouth while I steal this money" situation) Right! No way Fight!! I can't see the film. Shot gun first he the most dangerous . Then rest
They guy that survived all those shoot outs in his jewelry store had several loaded guns stashed in store He didn't reload he changed guns . That what he learned you don't have time to do these reloads you go for a 2nd 3 rd 4 th 5 th or and keep fighting .
I always carry 2
Clothing won't really stop a 900FPS bullet It might plug the HP but bullet will still reach you and hurt you. . I shot a 25 auto thru my issued flack vest in Nam Little sucker went right thru like wasn't their I Know designed to stop shrapnel not bullet. But little 25 suppose to bounce off people They will get mad if you shoot them and they find out. It went thru vest and wood pop case we had draped over . 380 will go thru a little clothing

[Americangirl01]

All thoughts are greatly appreciated. Feel free to comment on any of the following subjects, 1.)an ambush attack

That is really a tough call. First of all, the girls handled themselves exceptionally well and lived to see tomorrow. One girl even took the time to pick up some stuff from the shelf, I am assuming so he wouldn't see the stuff in front of the freezer door and think to look in there. Of course, if he made it into the freezer, they would all three be sitting ducks....
So, we'll say, it would depend on the circumstances. In TX, we are allowed to CC at work if there is no company policy against it. TX law also allows for the use of lethal force to protect people. In this particular video, the gunman went after the girls when they ran away, which makes me think he had intentions of harming them......
Now, if I saw them coming in the store, one obviously armed, I would probably tell the other two girls to go to the back and escape / hide, then I would take cover, draw and focus on the BG with the shotgun as they were coming in the door and defend myself from behind the counter....With only eight shots for 3 BGs, I am not sure that would be the best choice? (but I also carry a BUG loaded with 8 rds of .32)....Of course, it seems to me that the first thing the unarmed ones do is run.....Armed ones too, if they think they're going to get shot........
In 1991, there were four young girls murdered at a yogurt shop in Austin, TX. Eash was shot in the head, they were stacked on top of one another and then lit on fire.... I have to believe that anyone who comes into a place of business pointing a gun is willing to use it on any person in the business, regardless of what the gunman says......

2.) CC at work

In TX, we are allowed to CC at work, and I carry everyday I am working. Once I get to work, my pocket pistol goes onto my desk in my office.

3.) trigger safeties in a scenario where reaction needs to be fast,

As Lance posted, most here carry their pistols with a round in the chamber, and the hammer decocked, and decocker/safety off, therefore allowing the long DA pull and their brains to serve as the safety.....

Last but not least, Corbon DPX is the .380 SD ammo that I use. It has a solid copper hollow point bullet designed to pass through barriers while still maintaining the bullet weight.....
From their web-site...http://www.dakotaammo.net/Self-Defense-DPX/380-Auto-80gr-Self-Defense-DPX/DPX38080-20/200/Product
The all-copper bullet construction conquers hard barriers like auto glass and steel while still maintaining its integrity. This is an optimum load for Law Enforcement.

- Deep penetration on soft tissue 12-17 inches.
- Easily conquers hard barriers like auto glass and steel.
- Reduced recoil due to lighter-weight projectile.
- Lead-free projectile.
- Environmentally friendly!
*CERTIFIED: CALIFORNIA LEAD FREE*

Caliber: 380 Auto
Bullet Wt.: 80gr Self-Defense DPX
Velocity: 1050fps
Energy: 196ftlbs
Test Barrel Length: 2.5 Inches

[runpaulone]

Good to know.

[stidgun]

Looks like the employees executed a planed escape plan.

[brian c]

wow...really late to this one but in reference to the "shut up I'm just going to rob you" I know of several cases here in Canton Oh hee ho where the robbers apparently did not plan on shooting but the guns were in the face of the bank teller and the gas station attendent (both women) and both shot in the face when the bg in his friggin" nervousness shot the young women to death. These thugs are slime and don't care about your life and who knows what might make them kill you....by "accident" ....you looked at them...you weren't fast enough....not as much money as they thought they were going to get...or just plain don't give a crap.....like mt said...ya gotta fight.

[Bones]

wow...really late to this one but in reference to the "shut up I'm just going to rob you" I know of several cases here in Canton Oh hee ho where the robbers apparently did not plan on shooting but the guns were in the face of the bank teller and the gas station attendent (both women) and both shot in the face when the bg in his friggin" nervousness shot the young women to death. These thugs are slime and don't care about your life and who knows what might make them kill you....by "accident" ....you looked at them...you weren't fast enough....not as much money as they thought they were going to get...or just plain don't give a crap.....like mt said...ya gotta fight.

You're right. Guy standing there threatening you with a gun - how do you know he isn't going to decide he doesn't want witnesses? Castle doctrine makes sense.

[Ed4032]

Does anybody know if these guys got caught. It did not look like this was the first time that they have done this. Eventually they will shoot someone just for the thrill of it.